I would like to get your opinions on this.

I am terrible with recalling hand histories but I will do the best I can. I am playing a raked 1/2NL game. I have Kc Qc. There are about 4 people in the hand. The flop brings 10, 9, 4 (2 hearts). Someone bets out $5 we all call. Turn brings a Js. I have the nut straight at this point. 1^st to act bets about $20, one person folds, another calls. I reraise enough to put 1^st player all-in. He calls, the other player folds. I immediately table my hand showing the nut straight. The other player holds his cards without showing.

The river comes; it’s another heart making the flush possible. He tosses his cards forward, face down about 12 inches in front of him and tells me, "Nice hand". The dealers says, "Any 2 diamonds will take it". The player then says, "Oh, sorry Kristi, I DO have hearts." He reaches out and pulls his cards back and flips them up to reveal 2 low hearts. Dealer pushes the $180 pot to him. I immediately ask the dealer, "How is that not a muck?" Dealer says it is not a muck because it does not touch any of the other cards on the table.

I believe that if I was playing in a casino, this would have been a muck. The dealer should not have even addressed that there was a flush possible.

What do you think?

His hand has to hit the muck pile to be 'mucked.'  That said, tossing his hand towards the muck pile and then pulling them back is bad form.  Bad form, but not against the rules.  The worst part about this was the dealer.  He should be an impartial and mostly silent part of the game.  He is representing the house and should not try to help any player.  I would have given him a nice strong slap across the face, or even better sent my friend Tim to his house so that he could puke on his porch.

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It's not cool to puke in my dog's water bowl. You know who I'm talking to Spud.

It is a judgment call, but most of the time gestures are considered binding. If I move my chips at the pot and then say check, most places will consider it a bet. It is same with folding a hand.

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-- The School Teacher --

Here's what is supposed to happen....first of all the dealer should not have said anything like any two hearts will win.  Second, when a player folds the dealer should immediately kill the hand by grabbing it and putting it in the muck.  Once the dealer touches it, it's dead.  So, if the dealer didn't touch the hand before the player grabbed it back, it's like Mike said....some casinos will consider the motion a fold and the hand dead, others will say that it wasn't mucked and the player could pick them back up just as if they were right in front of him.  Basically your dealer screwed you twice...once by opening his mouth, then by not grabbing the cards immediately.

At a live tournament I played Thursday the following hand came up which was similar but WAY worse.  Not sure of the action before but on a flop of 10-5-7 Player1 bet and Player2 raised all in for about double what Player1 one bet.  Player1 turned his cards (pocket tens) face up in front of him.  First he claimed he didn't know anyone called so he was just showing what a good fold everyone made.  Then the dealer was like "Do you call or what?"  The guy said of course I'm pot committed.  Duh, nothing to do with having top set?  So the other guy who went all in turns over his pocket fives and says "That hand is dead.  He mucked them, it's dead."  The idiot dealer then listens to the player who has the incentive for the hand to be dead and grabs the tens and mucks them then mucks the entire deck!!!  Everyone at the table was yelling the hand wasn't dead because he turned them face up and didn't verbally declare fold.  The dealer then FINALLY calls the floor over and it takes like 4 floor people to decide the only thing they can do is chop the pot.  Both players were happy because the 5s would have been knocked out and the tens knew he F'ed up.  This was like 6 hours into the tournament and getting close to the money spots.  I still do NOT understand why people do NOT verbalize their intentions.

Two other quick things regarding verbalizing....that same Player1 guy said "Raise" once but didn't realize someone else had already raised and he put in less than legal raise so he was then forced to raise (Pay attention people!!).  Another guy once said "1000" while putting in 1000 chips and my BB was 600.  The dealer then let him raise to 1200.  I said it wasn't a legal raise so it was just a call since the guy didn't say raise.  The dealer (same dealer as above) didn't care and wouldn't even call a floor over.  I ended up having to fold my BB.

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In order to live, you must be willing to die.
--Amir Vahedi

Stef315:

Here's what is supposed to happen....first of all the dealer should not have said anything like any two hearts will win.  Second, when a player folds the dealer should immediately kill the hand by grabbing it and putting it in the muck.  Once the dealer touches it, it's dead.  So, if the dealer didn't touch the hand before the player grabbed it back, it's like Mike said....some casinos will consider the motion a fold and the hand dead, others will say that it wasn't mucked and the player could pick them back up just as if they were right in front of him.  Basically your dealer screwed you twice...once by opening his mouth, then by not grabbing the cards immediately.

 

I agree, in any casino, that hand would have been swept into the muck without a word. 

After the hand was over, I got up and walked it off.  A different dealer came into the box and the dealer that made the mistake called me over.  He said he wanted to give me my money back on the hand because it was his mistake.  I declined - because I am female and we get pissy from time to time.  I just told him I didn't want the money.  They guy had a better hand but it was the princple of the whole situation that I made me pissed.

I went to the same game again last night.  Someone unintentionally mucked their winning hand -he just tried to get fancy flipping it over and in landed face down, away from him.  The dealer (different dealer) said "Sorry, that's a muck."  The player agreed and the other player took the pot.   

 

 

FollowingSea:

It is a judgment call, but most of the time gestures are considered binding. If I move my chips at the pot and then say check, most places will consider it a bet. It is same with folding a hand.

My understanding is that gestures are not binding according to any written rules.  Verbal declarations and attempts to bet, call, or raise are binding.  If you throw your cards on the table and they don't touch the muck and the dealer doesn't swipe them your hand is still live.  When you are paying a house a rake, whether at a card room or casino, one of the things you are paying for is a comptetent and impartial dealer.  This whole situation could have been avoided if the dealer grabbed the cards and swept them like he should have.  It is a players job to protect their hand, it is the dealer's job to get from hand to hand as quickly and fairly as possible.

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It's not cool to puke in my dog's water bowl. You know who I'm talking to Spud.

Of course gestures are binding, how many times have you tapped the table and everyone considered it a check? That is a gesture and it is binding... =)

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-- The School Teacher --

WORDS AND GESTURES, says "A
statement of 'fold,' 'check,' 'call,' 'raise,' or a specific size bet
is binding on an active player. ... The substitution of an irregular
statement or gesture for 'fold,' 'check,' "call,' or "raise" is as
binding as the regular statement would be in that situation, provided
the intent is obvious or it could easily and justifiably be construed
as having that meaning."

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-- The School Teacher --

I agree Mike, there are CERTAIN accepted gestures that you would be forced to abide by.  Wrapping the table or using your hands to push your stack towards the middle in a big gesture without actually pushing would univerally be considered binding.  All I am saying about this situation is that your hand is live until it hits the muck or the dealer grabs it.  This would apply even if you wanted to play your hand but the dealer inadvertantly grabbed it.  It goes both ways, and as long as your hole cards are still on the table and not in the muck you can play it.

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It's not cool to puke in my dog's water bowl. You know who I'm talking to Spud.

It's the reason the cards speak for themselves.  If you misread your hand but still expose it by tossing it in front of you and saying I only had a set I can't beat your straight, but you really have a flush, a good dealer would push the chips towards you because even though you thought you were toast and tossed your cards you still have the best hand.  The difference here was the dealer was proactive in reading the board and not reacting to the hole cards of the two players.

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It's not cool to puke in my dog's water bowl. You know who I'm talking to Spud.

I disagree, usuallu they would be mucked. The cards had forward motion and the guy even says nice hand as he tosses them 12 inches in front of him. That hand is dead for sure. I doubt you would find a casino that would still rule them live. Again, that does fall in the slightly grey area but accepted practice dictates it is a muck.

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-- The School Teacher --

lindy0331:

It's the reason the cards speak for themselves.  If you misread your hand but still expose it by tossing it in front of you and saying I only had a set I can't beat your straight, but you really have a flush, a good dealer would push the chips towards you because even though you thought you were toast and tossed your cards you still have the best hand.  The difference here was the dealer was proactive in reading the board and not reacting to the hole cards of the two players.

No, that is a huge difference, the cards were face down, not face up. if they were face up that is totally different. I think this is where we are argueing, re-read what se wrote, the guy tossed his cards face down twelve inches in front of him.

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-- The School Teacher --

I did miss that.  I had thought the guy exposed his hand.

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It's not cool to puke in my dog's water bowl. You know who I'm talking to Spud.

He did not expose his hand.  He clearly mucked it, face down.  It just didn't hit the muck because the dealer had the muck cards on the other side of him - he was in the 2 seat.

FollowingSea:

I disagree, usuallu they would be mucked. The cards had forward motion and the guy even says nice hand as he tosses them 12 inches in front of him. That hand is dead for sure. I doubt you would find a casino that would still rule them live. Again, that does fall in the slightly grey area but accepted practice dictates it is a muck.

Actually, I've seen this happen many times at casinos.  If the player grabs their cards before the dealer touches them, they always let them play.  As long as the dealer hasn't touched them, their live.  A little different but think about a player in Seat 1 that has the cards in front of them.  If the dealer goes to grab them, as long as the player grabs them before the dealer touches them they are live.  If the dealer grabs them though, they're dead.

I would ask the casino I'm at right now but they are a joke.  I threw a fit yesterday and quit because it was a freakin circus!!  I'll ask my brother later though.

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In order to live, you must be willing to die.
--Amir Vahedi